posted by Mark Sharpe at 12:10 PM
You said at one point that a group of men had been trying to resolve the situation at Bellevue Baptist with no success. Perhaps you need a Deborah or Huldah to resolve the issues there. Let your women loose on this. I know it is a sad situation, but I believe good can come out of it. I will pray for you.
Kathryn, I surely agree. The longer this drags on, the more of a stronghold the devil establishes. Before long, we will all have to leave because Mr. Gaines is DAILY going about the deconstruction of Bellevue. What is going on? Is nothing being done? What kind of deacons do we have? Are there no men serving as deacons or are all but a handful scared of Mr. Gaines?I am shocked at the lack communication coming from ALL directions? Someone needs to tell us what is going on. If we need to stay to have our votes counted, you had better let us know. If there is not going to be a vote, we need to move our families to a better environment where they will be taught the pure truth of God's Word, and nothing but the truth. Somebody better get busy, and if the women have to do it, so be it.
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Thank you Mom 38134. I really think that one reason this isn't being resolved may possibly be that the ones chosen by God to deal with it may not be the men.
Mark Dougherty was on vacation. Destin to be exact.The audio of the meeting is on line at bellevue.org.
The actual meeting can be heard on line by going to the bellevue website... sorry... the REAL Bellevue website.Click on leadership meeting at the bottom left-hand corner of the screen.
check out article called Study:1300+ Dismissed in Bapt. Churches in '05. on Baptist Press website. Note last paragraphs regarding search ctes. I believe this is what happened w/BBC
Since there are so many of the Gaines' supporters that are making attempts to intimidate and bash the truthseekers, why don't we make a showing by our NON attendance in the worship services this coming Sunday. If you are still searching for the truth and in protest of the way the administration has attempted to derail the efforts to bring the truth via Matthew 18 to the light of day, take your family to visit another church this Sunday! I am sure that they will rejoice in our absence, but maybe if we are strong enough to stand by our convictions, our NON presence will make a statement that not 100% (or almost) of the deacons are comfortable with the dog and pony show that has been presented-TWICE - and that there are STILL questions that need honest answers and there is still accountability for illegal actions. Make a statement on this special day - NON-ATTENDANCE AT BELLEVUE THIS SUNDAY, OCTOBER 8th.
BR -I respectfully disagree with you, in fact I couldn't disagree more. Don't you see? This is exactly what the Pastor wants - for all of us to leave. This will play perfectly into his plan - we leave and he can honestly say "I never forced anyone to go".I know you are only talking about this Sunday, but I believe it sends the wrong message. We must be united in seeking the truth, and we can't do it while visiting other churches especially this Sunday.Rudi
Rudi, I understand your perspective. My reasoning is that we are being demonized, the justification being that we are a small minority that just doesn't like the music. I would only suggest such an event if it were just this Sunday morning worship services. I don't think that Steve Gaines actually realizes how many of us there really are (he may not care). This is the only way to show him that we are numerous and we are sincere about seeking the truth. There are those that will not sign their names for fear of persecution, intimidation or JOB LOSS. This way would make the statement without putting their welfare on the chopping block. Please let me have some more feedback about this. I would not want to suggest something that would not benefit the goal of seeking the truth in these matters.
Rudi, In leiu of non attendance, how about sending the tithes & offerings to someone else, maybe Love Worth Finding?? At least there we know that the gospel is being sent forth on a daily basis? Since Steve Gaines and Jim Barnwell has made that point that the money and attendance are up, the end justifies the means in their eyes?? I just don't think he gets it??
In Luke 22:25, our Lord warned us against emulating the world with it's patriarchal "power for power's sake" paradigm. His answer: The greatest to be as a servant, the last shall be first, the humble shall be exalted, etc. It sounds like the pastor and some elders may have fallen for that worldly model of "leadership". The Apostles Paul and Peter exhorted all believers to "submit themselves" one to another, even linking it to the fear of God (Ephesians 5:21, Galatians 3:28, and I Peter 5:5, to name only a few.
I am deeply saddened by the misinformation printed in the CA yesterday and today. The leadership of the church is either blind to the concerns of the people or choose to ignore the truth - which is - we just want answers. Regardless of what they say, they are not actually of the mindset to sit down with any of us, or to be forthcoming with information, or to be honest with the membership. My sincerest prayer is that there will be repentance with tears before the church so that we can reconcile with Steve Gaines and rectify the leadership,make the appropriate staff changes and move on. He is a good preacher, but a pastor- probably not, but a good preacher. Jaime Parker needs to go and bring someone better qualified to lead the worship(he ooos & aaahhs between each verse which is totally distracting and musically incorrect and he acts like we can't read the words on the screen!)He doesn't even lead the practices and his choices of music are immature and one sided. I listen to KLOVE a lot and I am not opposed to some contemporary music, but he is rediculous in his attempts. Mark Dougharty needs to go immediately, he has been a BIG part of the problem, so let him take his extra years salary and hit the road. Just keep him away from Love Worth Finding - no one wants him destroying all that is left of Pastor Rogers'legacy. Chuck Taylor needs to leave completely - find another church somewhere that is willing to gulp and gag his propoganda. Harry Smith has dissappointed me tremendously. In the 9/24 meeting, he stated that he had not even READ any of the accusations. How, please tell me, can he stand up there and "straighten us out" when his is clueless on the situation?? I am at a loss as to why Steve Gaines refuses to let Mark Sharpe address the deacons or membership. He stated that "not unless he repents" which sounds more to me like "not unless he recants". On 9/24 he went so far as to refer to himself as Paul who was persecuted by the "adversaries". My observations would be that Paul was persecuted for PREACHING THE GOSPEL, not the same as Steve Gaines by a long shot. NO ONE has critized his efforts in preaching the gospel, I believe that Steve Gaines is no where near the same calibur as Paul, however, Saul definitely comes to my mind. I would like to leave this post with this addressed to Steve Gaines - "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" 1 Corinthians 10:12 and "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Proverbs 28:13.
The "informative meeting" was anything but "informative". I sat and heard man after man get up and try to justify their actions.For example: The "Fence Fiasco". I believe the words used were, "We're sorry." NOT Chuck nor Steve asked for forgiveness! Their "apology" was cold and empty.Steve said "it was a mistake of the mind and not of the heart." How many times is he going to use this statement to excuse his behavior and actions?! We at Bellevue have always been taught to call sin - SIN! What Steve and the foursome did was SIN!! Steve spoke of the incident in such a way as to get a laugh. Let me say, that is what Satan does! If Satan can get us to laugh at our sin (or sin in general), then the sin is diminished in our eyes. We see it as no big deal. Steve "blew" it off by saying that "it was a little fence" and proceeded to show with his hand how high HE said the fence was to be. I can promise you on the authority of God's Word - GOD DOES NOT and DID NOT LAUGH at what Steve and the foursome did!! EVERYONE who laughed, in my opinion, caused Christ to feel the pain of the nails strike His hands once again.If we are to be like Christ, then let me ask this question to Steve and Mark Doughtery who say we are not to question or disagree (not even to one person) with the leadership and authority and to Chuck Taylor who states that we should "swallow and follow" - Are we to be like Christ and do the things He did?I pray that your answer is, "Yes."Then let me ask this - Was Jesus wrong for questioning the authority and leadership of the church in His day (the Pharisees)?I pray that your answer is, "NO!!"By your own statements, I am hearing "Clinton Talk". How can you say that we are not to disagree or question the authority of our leaders when Christ Himself set the example for us?Let me add that when Christ did have anything to say to the leadership of the church (the Pharisees), it was always in public! Christ exposed them for what they really were!Bellevue, we need to : WAKE UP - STAND UP & SPEAK UP!!!Let us NOT grow weary! "For if GOD is for us, who can be against us?"
In light of this morning's message on authority, I'd like to suggest BBC review what was presented when Henry Blackaby came and held his senimar on his book SPIRITUAL LEADERSHIP, particulary the chapter called THE LEADER'S CHARACTER---A LIFE THAT MOVES OTHERS TO FOLLOW. Dr. Blackaby dispels the idea that position alone demands authority. In part he says, "If there are any leaders who should not rely upon their position for their infulence, it is spiritual leaders. Spiritual leadership is based on the work of the Holy Spirit and on spiritual character. Without the guiding, empowering presence of the Spirit, leaders may hold positions but they will not be spiritual leaders. The Holy Spirit will not confirm their authority with their people... Holding a leadership position in a Christian organization does not automatically come with God's annointing. Many a misguided minister started out with the mistaken assumption that people would follow his leadership merely becuase he was their pastor. Then, when the congregation refused to follow, the disgruntled pastor assumed the people were unspiritual and left to find a more "spiritually responsive" church. Some leaders, realizing that position alone doesn't automatically bring them authority, will pursue influence over their people by using force and manipulation. Such insidious bullying carries with it even more disastrous consequences."There is much more Blackaby has to say on the subject. Perhaps someone could buy a copy for our present "Spiritual Leaders."
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ at Bellevue Baptist, Your former pastor you loved so much saw this day coming and warned his flock not to compromise the truth for the sake of unity as the scriptures teach. I heard Dr. Rogers take a stand on this in one of his messages to the church and even under pressure to compromise to become unified with other beliefs and faiths, he said," We don't have to come together, I don't even have to be pastor of this church, I don't even have to live". He was standing firm in the faith and was a "rock" not giving in to this apostate movement spreading across our country consuming our churches. Dr. Rogers was skilled in the prophetical word and preached about the coming falling away from the faith in the last days of the church. The church of Laodicea will God spew out of his mouth because they are neither hot nor cold but luke warm. This church is the apostate compromising church that will go into the Tribulation if she does not repent. II Tim.4:3 spoke of the time that will come when they will not endure sound doctrine and that they will turn away from the truth. That many deceivers and false teachers will abound and deceive many. God said he will send them "strong delusion" that they shall believe a lie that believed not the truth II Thess.2:11. And now it is here!! This ecumenical one world religion is nothing new. It has only been repackaged and relabeled. Instead of The New Age Movement, it is now called by Mr. Rick Warren and his New Age mentors, The New Christianity!! I did my own investigation of the Purpose Driven movement and all those behind it and was not at all surprised at what I found. These people are the new Nimrods building their tower of Babel. Rick Warren has stated that the enemy of the 21st century will be the fundamentalist believers!!! And if we refuse to change then we will have to leave the churches. Warren also has stated that there are some fundamentalist that will never change and they will have to die!! This is predicted in Rev.6:9!! Also that we are narrow minded. Yes Mr. Warren, we are very narrow minded because we are on the narrow road and that places you on the broad road Sir. The Southern Baptist have been a hard nut to crack and have stood firm. If satan cannot kill you he will "mix" with you and this is the true purpose of the Purpose Driven movement. The outside covering is cloaked with Christian wording but the inside is vile. The people behind this are New Age gurus and globalist seeking a New World order and unifying all religions to accomplish their goal. Rick Warren has preached openly about his global peace plan and unification of all religions into a one world church. The scriptures make it clear that men will not bring in world peace but Jesus our Lord will at his return. God destroyed the tower of Babel remember? Man's attempt for unity. This is nothing more than the harlot church riding the back of the beast in Rev.17!! The Purpose Driven Life book is full of this New Age doctrine and all the authors Mr. Warren quotes from are New Age spiritualist. The only thing being driven here is the true believers out of their own churches by intimidation or other tactics. Some are even being removed by police. We are just a hair away from severe persecution. Pastors are trained at Warren's seminars how to strong-arm, discredit, and intimidate church members who resist. Mark Sharpe is experiencing all of this and other church members across the country are too!!! Don't be deceived by their sidetracking tactics. This is not about gossip or back-biting. They will deny that the changes are part of the purpose driven plan to keep down the opposition. This is the "Trojan Horse" moving the enemy right into our churches. And yes, the true Bible believers are the enemy of these Purpose Driven apostates. They are feeding the goats and starving the sheep! They have stated that doctrine is not important and that no negative things like preaching about hell will be allowed! But Rick Warren's book is full of doctrines of demons based on the teachings of New Age spiritualist Carl Jung and his institute. Their fruit is rotten -- just view some of their vile videos they put together for their conferences !! Neil Fink and others. It is a mockery of our Lord!! God forgive them!! This new music coming into the church is nothing but satanical rock music and Warren says "Our church rocks"!! I could go on and on but if you will do your homework as I have you will see what this is and why church members are outraged with the worldly changes and the insensitivity, and arrogance of their pastors. Mr. Sharpe felt it and saw it just as the Holy Spirit is revealing and warning us all. The spirit that enters the church is evil and good Christians everywhere are feeling it. The scriptures exhort us not to be conformed to this world but to be ye separate. These large Purpose driven churches have become much like nightclubs music and all with large numbers and rich but God says they are wretched, and miserable, and blind, and naked. This is happening to churches in my town also and it is heartbreaking. We had to leave our church also. But the Lord has told us to come out from her and not to partake of her evil deeds. I applaud all those saints who are taking a stand for the King James Bible and not compromising with these people who are bringing in these damnable heresies. We are treated as the enemy and demonized as resisters. Hitler also claimed to be a born again Christian and often held up the Bible when he spoke. But later Hitler exterminated all that he called "the resisters"!!! We are satan's enemy and are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus our Lord. Satan has literally walked into our churches that were built up by its' dedicated,giving,loving members and has told them to get out!!! Well, we'll get out and go up when the trumpet sounds and the true church is caught up with Christ! The Lord is separating the wheat from the tares. The true believer will not stay in this worldly compromising church but will separate. The tares are being bundled and the wheat is ready for harvest! Praise the lord!! Please read the material and the research that James Sundquist has done and God bless you Mr. Sharpe for your stand. If we fail to sound the trumpet from the mountain top when we see the enemy, we will answer to God. Lift up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh.
Re: David Coombs - I am under the impression that he will not be REPLACING Mark Dougharty, but just a "buffer" between him and the pastor. Is David Coombs an ordained minister - and is Mark Dougharty ordained? Does any one know?
I wonder how real ministers who have received a genuine call from God and have taken the time to prepare for ministry in seminary feel about a CFO magically becoming "Minister of Administraton" as some sort of hobby after his company sells for millions of dollars. Please! I wonder how company would have recieved a pastor who applied for employment without the benefit of a business degree? Let's get real- if he is a CFO, call him the CFO of Belleuve since our church seems to be more of a corporation than a New Testament church.
So, They (Pastor and ???) just hired this man -not an ordained minister,never been to seminary - and he is hired at what salary - to become the "Minister of Finance"? And there are a handful of deacons who are supposed to be the watchmen over all?? Shielding the pastor from what - us?He is digging in deep fellows. What are the rest of the deacons doing? Where is the vote on this? We need to clean house! If the deacons won't stand, the rest of need to get a lawyer. I know of no other way than to force a response since Gaines and the deacon body are ignoring the Word of God - Matthew 18.
We've seen a preacher (not a "pastor") get rid of other staff members. We've seen him demote deacons and Bible Fellowship teachers. Just what DOES it take to get rid of a preacher??? I regret the day we voted him in; now how can we vote him out? He is an employee of the church (of which I help pay his salary). Surely we have some say in this.
Dear Bellevue members, do any of these things look familar?Is Your Church Going Purpose Driven?How Can You tell?Church Transitions, an associate of Saddleback Church in California, trains the clique initiating the change in eight published steps. The church membership is not to be informed of the transition until the fourth step. After the sixth step in the process of change, if there are some in the church who voice concerns, the following is suggested: 1. Identify those who are resisting the changes;2. Assess the effectiveness of their opposition;3. Befriend those who are undecided about the changes;4. Marginalize more persistent resisters;5. Vilify those who stay and fight; and6. Establish new rules that will silence all resistance. This means the church membership is not told until it is too late to make a difference. In other words, the church is stolen. Then the members either accept the changes, or leave the church, which they may have served and given to build.Dr Rick Warren, author of "The Purpose Driven Church" and "The Purpose Driven Life" has boasted: "When you reveal the vision to the church, the old pillars are going to leave. But let them leave... they only hold things up." Dr. Warren is right in one way. It is the senior members of the church who do indeed hold a church up and keep it from falling into apostasy. While some PDC initiators may not implement the full PDC format, generally, these are the signs that your church is targeted for a Purpose Driven Church format: 1. Change in music to a contemporary rock style.2. Removal of hymn books; eliminating the choir.3. Replacement of organ and piano with heavy metal instruments.4. Repetitive singing of praise lyrics.5. Dressing down to casual and informal attire.6. Eliminating of business meetings, church committees, council of elders, board of deacons, etc.7. The pastor, or a new leader with a few assistants, usually four, takes charge of all church business.8. A repetitive 40-day Purpose Driven Church study program stressing psychological relationships with each other, the community, or the world, begins.9. Funded budgeted programs are abandoned, or ignored, with ambiguous financial reports made.10. Sunday morning, evening, and/or Wednesday prayer meetings are changed to other times; some may even be eliminated.11. Sunday School teachers are moved to different classes, or replaced by new teachers more sympathetic with the changes being implemented.12. The name "Sunday School" is dropped and classes are given new names.13. Crosses and other traditional Christian symbols may be moved from both the inside and outside of the church buildings. The pulpit may also be removed.14. In accordance with Dr. Warren’s instructions, new version Bibles are used; or only verses flashed on a screen are referenced during regular services.15. Purpose Driven Church films, purchased from Saddleback, precede or are used during regular services.16. The decor, including the carpets, may be changed to eliminate any resemblance to the former church.17. The word "church" is often taken from the name of the church, and the church may be called a "campus". Denominational names may also be removed.18. An emphasis on more fun and party sessions for the youth.19. Elimination of altar calls or salvation invitations at the close of the services.20. The elimination of such words as "unsaved", "lost", "sin", "Hell", "Heaven" and other Gospel verities from the pastor’s messages.21. The reclassification of the saved and lost to the "churched" and the "unchurched".22. The marginalizing, or ostracizing, of all who are not avid promoters of the new Purpose Driven Program.23. Closed meetings between the pastor or chosen staff members without any reports made to the general membership.24. Open hostility to members who do not openly embrace the new program, or who may have left for another church. What You Can DoIf your church is in the initial stages of change (music or the first 40-day program), your church could be saved by talking with other church members, and with activist intervention by 10-20 percent of the membership. If nothing is done at this early stage, then by the time the program advances to step four, there is little that can be done except look for another church. Your church has been stolen and become a Purpose Driven entity in association with Saddleback Church of Orange County or Willow Creek of Chicago. You must educate yourself, and others, so that you can mobilize the membership to effectively resist. "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind" 2 Timothy 1:7.http://www.scionofzion.com/purpose_driven.htm
To Countryboy:Thank you for your insight and information on Purpose Driven Churches. I think most of us reading these comments have already realized we are Purpose Driven. What I didn't realize until I read your first post is that Rick Warren has ties to the New Age movement. If anyone reading this STILL doesn't believe we are Purpose Driven (since Gaines said we are NOT) then do the following:Stay on the Saving Bellevue website. Go to Church Growth Links, click on Featured Items, then click on Follow up of article written by WSJ reporter and read that article. Then go back up to the highlighted link that says "from Purpose Driven Resisters - Leave or Die" and read that. Eventually you will come to the part where Dan Southerland calls opposers of Purpose Driven "leaders from hell." He talks about Nehemiah and Sanballet. You will recall a reference to this story in Deacon David Bishop's letter to Bellevue. Apparently Gaines referred to himself as Nehemiah in the Deacons Meeting. Coincidence? I think not. Thanks again Countryboy and to everyone working behind the scenes to clean this mess up. Sincerely,Diana Hart
diana hart, thanks for reminding me about that link because it is very revealing. It takes the sheep's wool right off these Purpose Driven wolves. Everyone needs to go to this site and read it all. These PD pastors will look you right in the eye and lie to you. Our pastor told us he was not going PD but was implementing the program as fast as he could. Steve Gaines is doing this to Bellevue and is not telling you the truth either. Steve Gaines is a Rick Warren disciple and has been trained to use this tactic. He is a false teacher and needs to be removed from your church as quickly as possible and you will need to seek the Lord on bended knees to get this kind out . They are very agressive with this program and they will fight you but the Lord will get him out. Also, "Church Transitioning" is an associate of Saddleback Church and is a New Age term for "transitioning" which is referring to opening up or becoming receptive to demon control or "spirit guide". This is the take over of our churches of devils!!! They are also called "walk-ins". There 's a new series on TV called Heroes and it is about these walk-ins or demons, but the series depicts these spirits as saving us and the world. This is pure brainwashing and conditioning the world for the Antichrist.
Countryboy, I have looked all over the Warren websited and I cannot find out what P.E.A.C.E. stands for. Do you know?
Br..P.E.A.C.E. stands for Partner with or Plant churches, Equip servant leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick, and Educate the next generation.In other words it stands for the social gospel that appeals to the world.
Thank you for your response. From what I have read, he is trying to bring about the peace in the middle east right now. This is scary..
Your welcome Br....Rick Warren actually believes in the "Kingdom Now" philosophy. Which is not Biblical.
The Bible teaches that as born_again Christians, the Kingdom of God is within us (the New Testament). We are commanded in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation to care for the poor, the sick, and address issues of injustice. So there is a Kingdom Now, it just isn't the Rick Warren type.
Rick Warren is probably more accurately described as a "dominionist"....which means he believes (from all that I've gathered from what I've read)that Christians can actually usher in the millenial kingdom by taking dominion of the earth...in other words..kind of bring eden back. It's a view similar to the postmillenial folks who hold to a theonomist/reconstructionist idea. In this view they believe that the millenium will be ushered in by "reconstructing" society into a theocracy ruled by God's law, with some adjustments. The difference between the two being that the postmillenialists have no ties to any New Age philosophy, or utopian ideals per a Karl Marx. After reading the items in the "tool box", I must say I got a case of the shivers...it was waaay to close to communist/marxist methods of "reeducating" the masses to the socialist utopian ideal. Some food for thought.
I'm glad to see people taking a stand against Christian Reconstructionism, or theocracy, in this forum. While God gave male and female dominion over His creation, He did not give them dominion over another adult human being (Genesis 1:26, & 27). I understand that the human race needs government because of sin, but "Christian" theocracy, or any theocracy, is nothing more than our attempt to impose our ideas upon the world under the guise of "religion". Too often, it results in persecution to those who do not share that view. The Word tells us that true peace will not come to the world until Jesus the Anointed One brings it in person.
This is a long article to read it all go to savingbellevue.com and look down toward the bottm of the page where it says "site search" and click on it, then type in the word James and then look at the list and click on James Sundquist to read the whole article. You will see Steve Gaines is turning Bellevue into a Purpose Driven church regardless of what he says. Discovery 301 class is teaching Doctrines of Demons from New Age spiritualist Carl Jung.I think it is of the utmost urgency that you warn your fellow Bellevue Baptist Church members to help save your church. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO POST! By promoting Rick Warren's version of a healthy church such as forcing members to take Discovery 301 Class to be members of Bellevue Baptist Church, which is based on Carl Jung demon spirit Philemon temperament divination, Steven Gaines is hardly promoting what Jesus Christ deems to be a healthy church. Here is the proof: http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/James/personality-profiling.htmlHere is what the DISCOVERY 301 CLASS (aka SHAPE) that Pastor Steve Gaines is really teaching at Bellevue Baptist Church: WHO'S DRIVING THE PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH by James Sundquist Chapter Eleven Personality Profiling In the last chapter we discovered in general what Rick Warren’s SHAPE program is as well as an in depth look at what he means by the S, H, A, and the E in SHAPE. The S in SHAPE refers to Spiritual Gifts that can only be possessed by a believer, as even Rick Warren asserts, meaning that only the “new man” can possess them. However, the Heart, Abilities, Personality, and Experience (the H,A,P,E in SHAPE) could apply to believers as well as non-believers. The impression is created that there is an attempt to combine the attributes of the new man (the S in SHAPE) and the old man (the H,A,P,E in SHAPE) in what Rick Warren describes as a “custom combination of capabilities.” When Jesus warned us against putting new wine into old wineskins (the old man) . . . the wineskins did not burst right away, but after a season. Much, if not all, of Rick Warren’s SHAPE (HAPE) is the old wineskin. So the only thing that is going to happen is that eventually, Warren’s SHAPE wineskin is going to burst! By now many of you must be asking, “If some of the teachings behind the other letters in Rick Warren’s SHAPE are faulty, then how can we trust the teaching behind the remaining letter (P”) in his SHAPE acronym?” Well you would be right! You can’t trust it, and we will prove why! The individual letters of SHAPE as well as any value of combining all of the letters cannot be biblically defended. Even if four out of the five letters in SHAPE could be biblically defended, but one is in error, it corrupts the entire acronym. A little leaven leaveneth the entire lump. A little strychnine in the stew poisons the entire stew, no matter how excellent and fresh the meat, potatoes, and vegetables. Once again I must point out that the actual personality profile questionnaire (the P in SHAPE) is not in Rick Warren’s Purpose Driven Life book. Rather he gives a general description of it. In order to obtain the actual personality profile questionnaire that you take and fill out (and determine your score), you must do the same thing you did to obtain the SHAPE questionnaire. The personality questionnaire is a questionnaire within a questionnaire, in that it is embedded in the SHAPE questionnaire (the P in SHAPE). You may access one website’s adaptation of it online at: www.unl.edu/navs/resources/shape.pdf or directly from Saddleback Church. But before I go into detail to describe how Rick Warren’s personality profile is based on Carl Jung’s theories of personality, it would be very instructive to give you the background of how Carl Jung’s psychology of personality found its way into evangelical Christianity. This can best be described in the following article on Myers-Briggs Temperament Indicator (MBTI), which will also clearly reveal where Rick Warren got his ideas for his personality profile embedded in his SHAPE questionnaire. We have received special permission to reprint this excellent article. We invite you to read it. It may be found in appendix C at the end of this book and documentary. It may also be accessed online at www3.bc.sympatico.ca/st_simons/arm03.htm As to the validity of the Myers-Briggs Temperament Indicator, as well as the abridged version known as the Keirsey-Bates Temperament Sorter, for determining your personality temperament, please refer to the following research article: “Measuring the MBTI . . . And Coming Up Short” at www.work911.com/cgi-bin/links/jump.cgi?ID=4014. The following quote summarizes Dr. Pittenger’s findings: As noted above, the Myers-Briggs™ instrument generates sixteen distinct personality profiles based on which side of the four scales one tends toward. Technically, the instrument is not supposed to be used to spew out personality profiles and pigeonhole people, but the temptation to do so seems irresistible. Providing personality tests and profiles has become a kind of entertainment on the Internet. There is also a pernicious side to these profiles: they can lead to discrimination and poor career counseling. Employers may hire, fire, or assign personnel by personality type, despite the fact that the MBTI® is not even reliable at identifying one’s type. Several studies have shown that when retested, even after intervals as short as five weeks, as many as 50 percent will be classified into a different type. There is scant support for the belief that the MBTI® would justify such job discrimination or would be a reliable aid to someone seeking career guidance (Pittenger 1993). —Source: http://skepdic.com/myersb.html In answer to the question as to whether Rick Warren’s personality profile integrates the teachings of Carl Jung (in terms of the MBTI and the Keirsey-Bates), there are at least three places online which feature the actual SHAPE Discovery test (and at least three variations of the test . . . but both variations invoke Jung’s terms: Introvert/Extrovert and Thinker/Feeler). These websites will be listed later in the chapter. Rick Warren, in talking about the P component in The Purpose Driven Life, uses the same terminology coined by Carl Jung. Rick Warren contrasts Introvert/Extrovert and Thinker/Feeler . . . exactly the terminology and meaning promoted and intended by Carl Jung. It is well-documented both by Carl Jung himself as well as by reputable scholars that Carl Jung obtained his personality theory by divination, necromancy, Taoism, astrology, paganism and evolution (refer to appendix C). My own correspondence with the Jung Institute in Zurich, Switzerland, confirms this. There is no question that Jung’s personality theory and books constitute magic arts. Christians have no business drawing from his magic arts to minister or teach Christians to follow. It is so surprising that Rick Warren would utilize Jung’s terms in order for Christians to plug this into their personality evaluation. Believers should be aware of what the Bible says regarding divination: There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. —Deuteronomy 18:10–12 Here is the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of divination: The art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usu. by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers. What follows is an excerpt from a more comprehensive SHAPE profile, otherwise known as Discovery Class 301. It can be found at First United Pentecostal Church’s website that uses it. The complete profile is posted at: www.firstchurch.ca/pdf/Ministry%20301.pdf. The following excerpt from the SHAPE (Discovery 301) questionnaire is absolute proof of the Carl Jung rooted personality profile, or the “P” in Rick Warren’s SHAPE program Discovery 301 Class. (This version of the SHAPE questionnaire is approximately 68 pages). Class 301 – Discovering My Ministry—Page 46 It’s obvious that God has not used a “cookie cutter” to stamp out people in a process of uniformity. He loves variety—just look around! There are no “right” or “wrong” temperaments. Rather, we need opposites in personality types to balance the church. Although there are many fine (and detailed!) personality assessments available, for the purpose of your ministry profile, we want you to consider just five aspects . . . HOW DO I SEE MYSELF?Note in particular that your personality traits are scored. These traits were derived from Carl Jung’s practice of divination. The numbers assigned above were not originally used by Carl Jung (though Carl Jung practiced astrology, numerology and Ouija boards). The numbers were later introduced by Myers-Briggs, who codified these traits. Again we see numbers assigned to the Discovery 301 Class questionnaire, as seen above. Numerology is practicing or ascribing numerical values to hidden knowledge (including personality), not limited to predicting the future. Using this chart as though these numbers have some spiritual significance for a Christian is why this is numerology (a form of divination) which the Bible forbids.Every SHAPE questionnaire adaptation online we have discovered (for which the churches credit Rick Warren’s SHAPE program) uses the personality profiling derived from Carl Jung.Another example is the First United Methodist Church in Mineola, Texas, which uses and adapts Rick Warren’s SHAPE and specifically his personality profile. They state:List your Kiersey-Bates personality type from the test:______ (E or I) ______ (S or N)______ (T or F) ______ (J or P)—http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/bojo/station3_WS.htmIn this Jung-based personality profile, E stands for Extrovert, I stands for Introvert, S stands for Self-Expressive, N stands for Intuitive, T stands for Thinker, F stands for Feeler, J stands for Judging, and P stands for Perceiver.If you visit the above site, you will see Warren’s SHAPE questionnaire, but you will also note references to the Keirsey-Bates Temperament Sorter.Pastor Bob DeWaay, author of Redefining Christianity: Understanding the Purpose Driven Life, wrote a brilliant expose comparing Rick Warren definition of a "Healthy Church" vs. Jesus Christ's definition described in the seven churches in Revelation Chapter 2-3. See:http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue86.htm.You can also hear it as Part 14 in his radio broadcast series at:http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Critical_Issues_Commentary/archives.asp?bcd=2006-7-31For more information why Bellevue Baptist Church should reject Rick Warren as a false teacher and renounce running his program, I invite you to read the just released documentary entitled: Rick Warren's Global Peace Plan vs. Scripture, a complimentary PDF version is available online at:http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/James/Rick-global-peace-plan.htmlJames SundquistDirectorRock Salt Publishing
Have some of the email addresses been deleted? I noticed some blanks. Are they requesting the deletions? If so, they need to be removee as deacons. Their purpose is to serve the flock, not posture with the elite.
Well BR, Chuck did say "ask a deacon" and "there are 188 of them spread throughout" although it seems like they are getting harder and harder to find. I'm very disgusted with the ones who wrote rude responses to that one couple and I'm also extremely disgusted with Phil Weatherwax's attack on Josh, Mark, and everyone else he listed. Might as well add me to your list Phil. And Countryboy, thanks for your info on the Discovery Class. A friend has been asking me about that so your post was timely. It is also lovely to know that Warrenism has spread to every denomination so we can't leave the Baptist Church and go somewhere else and be safe.The more info that gets posted to Savingbellevue the more nauseated I become. Sorry webmaster - nothing personal! I love and admire everyone involved. And we are praying for you.Diana
I believe we do have a class that everyone must attend before becoming a member, but it isn't Dr. Jernigan's class. Dr. Jernigan teaches a regular Bible study class that has been renamed "The Pastor's Class" because Steve and Donna Gaines have joined it. His class has absolutely nothing to do with a membership requirement or Warrenism. In fact, most in that class are older, mature Christians.
Countryboy,Is the Discovery class something that was installed with the grand entrance of Sir Steve, or has it been there since the PDL study at Bellevue? Just wondering. I too, am very disappointed in how the Deacons are handling all of this. This is the time they should show love to the members and try to reconcile this situation rather than "staying on one side of the fence" (no pun intended). I do know that there is a growing number of Deacons who are beginning to question the integrety of those in Leadership roles. I pray that this comes to an end soon!
I'm glad someone mentioned the Discovery Class. Has anyone taken it recently? Did it look anything like this?That covenant on page 63 would make me squirm. In fact, I wouldn't sign something like that. (See Matthew 5:33-37.)The "Spiritual Gifts" and "Temperament" surveys on the Bellevue.org site sound like something straight out of a psychology textbook and/or the PDC playbook. I hate tests like that. I did hold my nose and take the ones on the Bellevue.org site three times (several months apart), just out of curiosity, and I got three different "recommendations." I really don't put much stock in things like this. I figure at my age (I'm knocking 50) I know my strengths and weaknesses without having to take a test to validate and pigeonhole them.In fact, I have a real problem with requiring all new members to take any kind of class. By all means, offer new member classes for those who are interested, especially for new Christians, but when did taking a class become a requirement for membership in any Southern Baptist church for someone moving his letter from another SB church?
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the Discovery Class. I have served there for some time and it has not changed in years. It has nothing to do with PDC and no one is asked to sign anything. The Spiritual Gifts test is given; and, attendees are asked to take the Temperment test home with them and complete it later if they want to. While these tests are a silly waste of time, the intent is give new members some guidance in how to "plug in" to a ministry at Bellevue and become involved. Most of the time is consumed by several staff members orienting new members to Bellevue - very similar to a University orientation session.I share the concerns of most of the contributors to this blog but it is time to deal with real issues and put this one to rest. It is a "red herring". It appears to me that Countryboy, while well intentioned, sees Warrenism behind every bush.
iwasthere,Thank you for explaining that. I didn't know. That's why I asked!
diana hart,You can go to monergism.com and go the audio resources section...there are some mp3's from various speakers on the Emergent church movement..also on the menu to the left there are links to articles on different subjects...you might find some articles there. Though I don't think there's a direct connection between emergent and PDC, they both seek to radically redefine what constitutes a church...I find them both very unBiblical. Hope this helps.
Diana,There is a helpful web site you can go to concerning contemplative/emergent Christianity. It is http://www.fromthelighthouse.com/blog/index.phpIt is a bit daunting to understand all of this stuff, but it also seems to be the thing that we need to be aware of.
Hi Diana, The Emergent Church is not the same as the Purpose Driven Church espoused by Rick Warren. The Emergent Church, among many other faults, rejects absolute truth in favor of post-modernism. While I think Rick Warren’s ideas are far from the ideal, he does not hold to the fuzzy beliefs of the emerging church. Here are links to two good articles on the emerging church movement. The first is by Dr. Albert Mohler and the second is by Dr. Russell Moore, both of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville. http://albertmohler.com/commentary_read.php?cdate=2005-02-16http://www.henryinstitute.org/commentary_read.php?cid=103Below is a link to a lot of material on Seeker Sensitive/Purpose Driven churches. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/seeker.htmlBy the way, there is a new Bellevue forum at http://bbcopenforum.blogspot.com/
Donna, The Purpose Driven program has been moving into Bellevue now for a few years. Our pastor here has been watching the changes going on at Bellevue and was not surprised when he heard of the conflict there. So some of the programs have been there for some time now and that encludes the Discovery 301 class. It is about finding your spiritual gifts and also temperament and other things,but it is not as innocent looking as it appears. James Sunquist has done thousands of hours of research on this and it is the same course taught there at Bellevue called Discovery 301 and the Temperament survey. I did my own research on this and found out the same things as did Sunquist. These programs have been in our churches for several years but people thought they were just part of the usual Baptist material. This same Temperament survey was implemented in our public schools and colleges years ago. We pulled our children out of school and taught them at home. I can tell you that what we found being implemented in our schools was exactly what Rick Warren is teaching word for word in his Purpose Driven book !! We saw it and read the curriculum and it is the same "psycho-social" , temperament, "feelings", self-esteem, New Age garbage !! It's purpose was for psychological changes in the way our children think and believe. Our entire culture has been permeated with this occultic mind-set and it was concocted in the sanctuary of hell! Our seminaries and universities were taken over by these liberal apostate teachers years ago and that is when we began to see these books coming out attacking the divinity of Jesus and other false doctrines. It has saturated the entire educational system. You are absolutely correct notaskepfordsheep, it is straight out of a psychology textbook. It is exactly the same as taught in Carl Jung's New Age Psychology Institute because he is the author of it or his spirit guide Philemon as Jung says !! Now the Discovery 301 has a connection and a name and it's just too horrible to believe that this could get into our churches but it has !! Yes, "iwasthere" it is the exact survey that is used in University Oreintation and has been for 2 or 3 decades. This New Age psychology is not something new. I saw this same material coming into our schools and churches as far back as the early 70's! So it is not at all a "red herring" I have researched this for decades. Also, Rick Warrens material may seem different on the surface when comparing it to the Emergent Church, but when you dig deep into their true purpose and beliefs they are exactly the same. The Emergent Church is the apostate church of Rev. 17 or a global comprimising church. This lie was started in the garden with Eve and it is here today just new label and different packaging. The www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com is a great site for info on this "Emerging Church". The Purpose Driven Church and this emerging global church are the same. I have found that all of the cults have a basic foundation. They attack the divinty of Jesus, teach deeds for salvation, use false translations, and teach that you can become divine. Rick Warren and Joel Olsteen teach all of these things !! I heard it with my own ears. I have a copy of the Jehovah's Witness's Bible and it is exactly like the translations used by Warren. They believe also that man will bring in a kingdom of peace as Warren does. When you begin to connect the dots, you see the whole picture and they all promote the same ole lie fed to Eve . The "Witnesses" also rule their members in the "Hall" with elders. This explains the loss of control there at Bellevue and all of the churches that have brought this in. The members have no say-so and the control will be in the hands of the pastor and a small group who protect him. So this PD madness was not an overnight thing. It has been slowly permeating our churches like "evil leaven" for years and most of us never noticed intil now. God will allow sever persecution when the church becomes spiritually flabby and we are seeing it here in our country with this hostility toward church members who refuse to go along with this "new spiritually".The only thing that will be produced by this stuff is churches full of a bunch of "goats" seeking fun, food, and entertainment while the "sheep" are chased out by the "wolf". I love you all but I have to tell the truth. Sharpen your swords and let's get in there and take a stand for our Lord.
stepfordsheep, resend your comments.
I saw some of the same things in the PD model...it's all based on the same stuff that overtook the educational system...."outcome based"...in other words...everthing is programmmed to produce the desired outcome...thesis...antithesis...synthethis...wake up and smell the coffee.
NASS,I am really enjoying your comments on the other blog. The one about the music really hit home with me because I used to be in the choir and the new music didn't do much for me. In fact, when we used to sing the wonderful music all those songs stayed in my mind so much that I couldn't get rid of them! Not so with the new improved music. And I was very thankful that it didn't stay in my mind because I didn't like much of that music. Anyway you gave me the best laugh I've had in days about the same 7 words 11 times. Thanks for the comic relief. I really needed it! I don't feel like posting over there but I'll continue to read what you, br, and WTB have to say. Great comments from all of you!!!! Also some very nice comments about Mark which were nice to hear. I have only seen and heard him speak once but the main thing I got from that meeting was HUMBLE.Diana
My understanding is that Bellevue is removing the Spiritual Gifts and Temperment test from the Discovery Class. I guess most of you will have to find something else to write about.
NASS,Do you have access to the Membership 101 class/covenant from that same church that you linked to earlier? Please post it if you can.Thanks,Diana
Jesus is truly the only answer for our current situation. He alone can calm storms and still mighty waves. My heart cries out to Him to do so.Why is this happening at a spiritually mature church like Bellevue? There are very godly, Jesus loving people with diverse stands. Some diversity stems from our sin nature and walking in the strength of the flesh. The diversity that demands examination comes from the difference in the spiritual gifts God has given to each believer.Ephesians says God gave the to the church: apostles, evangelists, prophets, and pastors and teachers. The pastors on our staff are God's gifts to Bellevue. Are the irrevocable gifts? No. Samuel anointed Saul as King over Israel. Yet later, because of Saul’s sin, God sent His prophet, Samuel, to Saul with a message confronting sin and announcing the Lord had rejected him as king over Israel (1 Samuel 15).Has God sent a prophet(s) to Bellevue to address sin? I believe that He has.Historically, prophets have been individuals of God's choosing and anointing. Many were reluctant to accept God's call. Yet in obedience, they proclaimed what God told them. Often, the message was neither popular nor welcomed by the majority or those in leadership. It usually involved much sacrifice on the part of the prophet. (Consider Jeremiah.) After hearing Mark Sharpe speak at the Bartlett meeting, sensing the humbleness and contriteness of his spirit, his desire for reconciliation, his effort to clarify truth from rumor, I for one believe he is a prophet from God to our congregation. At the meeting I felt the anointing and presence of God in an unusually powerful way. Are we to give less heed to a prophet than to a pastor called to our church by man?Also, since there is a "diversity of gifts", we will perceive things from different perspectives. This is God’s design so that we will need each other and be able to function together as His body on earth. The gift of discernment allows those so gifted by the Lord insight that others may not have. That is a gift that God gave me at salvation. It is not always a comfortable gift. I began feeling something was wrong about a year ago during worship services. I felt guilty feeling that way. This impression from the Lord has intensified. Something is not right. I know that as well as I know that Jesus saved me. Can it be fixed? God is a God of the impossible. He can do what man cannot do. He closes doors that no man can open. He opens doors that no man can close. He lifts up the lowly and "He will keep the feet of His saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall He thunder upon them. The LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; He will give strength to His king (could this be His messenger), and exalt the horn of His anointed." (1 Sam. 2:9-10)The heart desire of most is for unity and healing. Yet can there be unity and healing until the issues are addressed and accurately and thoroughly answered? Is unity and image control more important than truth and seeking God's way in everything? At this point there are allegations - serious allegations made at an extreme cost to individuals and to our church. May God anoint the eyes, ears, and minds of the leadership to discern the facts. May Jesus Christ be honored and magnified above all else.
iwtk wrote: "My understanding is that Bellevue is removing the Spiritual Gifts and Temperment test from the Discovery Class."That's good. I guess the bellevue.org webmaster hasn't gotten wind of that yet. Those tests are still on that site.
Here's two good Christian websites to learn about the Purpose Driven movement and Emerging Church to see they are one in the same.www.sliceoflaodica.comwww.crosstalkamerica.comLook for the archived programs.
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